21 June 2006

SAF Death

ST June 21, 2006
Commando dies during pool training

A SINGAPORE Armed Forces Commando officer died while undergoing training at the swimming pool in Hendon Camp yesterday afternoon.

According to a statement released late last night by the Ministry of Defence, Lieutenant Lionel Lin Shi Guan, 24, a regular, encountered difficulties during training in the pool.

An instructor assigned to him immediately passed him a float and instructed him to swim to the edge. But, while swimming towards the edge of the pool, Lt Lin went under.

He was brought back up by an instructor who was next to him in the water, brought to the pool's edge and given immediate medical attention, the statement said. But he began vomiting and passed out.

Lt Lin was rushed to the Hendon Medical Centre at 4.05pm, where two doctors attempted to resuscitate him. At 4.10pm, he was taken to Changi General Hospital, but was pronounced dead about 50 minutes later.

An inquiry will be conducted into the circumstances of Lt Lin's death. The ministry and SAF have extended their deepest condolences to his family.
Mr Wang will await news of further developments before commenting.

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Past Musings: Ong Jia Hui's Death.

57 comments:

Anonymous said...

There seems to be a spate of training related deaths reported in the media in recent years after the death of that Guardsman. During the Tony Tan years, deaths in the SAF are just not reported in the media.

Anonymous said...

Mindef didn't count on that guardsman's parents to air their grievances to the media. Maybe during the Tony Tan years, they threatened anyone who dared publicise the deaths? Or maybe they just shut those parents' mouth with insurance money.

Anonymous said...

If you look at all military organisations in the world, all of them have their own fair share of training incidents/ deaths but they wouldn't be too "overly-concerned abt it". Fair enuf, S'pore is diff and to us, each and every single citizen is considered a valuable asset. But we shouldn't start pointing the finger at the military everytime an incident like this occurs. Unfortunate as it is, we ought to have some tolerance for such mishaps.

Anonymous said...

When someone close to you dies, let's see whether you will have tolerance. How many deaths should we tolerate? Ten, twenty, 100?

Anonymous said...

Let's put things into perspective here. Tolerate what? Til now, there is no evidence to proof that the death was caused by any negligence. So "tolerate" just isn't not the right word to use. Anyway it's not as if the army ends up killing ppl every other day.

Mr Wang Says So said...

Ah, that is why Mr Wang said:

"Mr Wang will await news of further developments before commenting".

Anonymous said...

maybe it the no. of deaths during NS training continues..we won't have to serve anymore le...

Anonymous said...

Tsk tsk... you must be someone who's yet to serve the country. Boy, think of the consequences if we dun hav NS anymore. Have you been payin attention in your history classes in school? What would become of us if we didn't hav a credible army of our own? In the 2yrs that u serve, you'll learn stuff that will equip and gain you the advantage when you come out to work in society, you will make great frens who will remain with you for the rest of your life. Why do you think our foreign business partners have biz links with us? Cos they feel safe, knowing their investments are stable here. Our Armed forces exist as a necessary deterrence. YOU sleep soundly at night because there are ppl serving NS. Do not trivialise something like National Service

Anonymous said...

The poor chap's a regular officer, not just some NS boy. They don't make young NSFs go thru this kinda advanced training. SO no worries

Anonymous said...

A Life is a life is a life.

Dun you guys get it!

One life lost is ONE TOO MANY.

This is not buying a char kway teow. We are talking about someone's son here, not merely a digit in Singapore Inc!

Singaporeans, please have more compassion!

WANG said...

This is a request to all comments to stick to the topic as the party involved is known.

recruit ong said...

"Tsk tsk... you must be someone who's yet to serve the country. Boy, think of the consequences if we dun hav NS anymore. Have you been payin attention in your history classes in school? What would become of us if we didn't hav a credible army of our own? In the 2yrs that u serve, you'll learn stuff that will equip and gain you the advantage when you come out to work in society, you will make great frens who will remain with you for the rest of your life. Why do you think our foreign business partners have biz links with us? Cos they feel safe, knowing their investments are stable here. Our Armed forces exist as a necessary deterrence. YOU sleep soundly at night because there are ppl serving NS. Do not trivialise something like National Service"

You are the biggest and stupidest idiot to think like this and if you have done your NS then you are even more jialat then the prataman and old fart talking nonsense. Wait... you got me there! Didn't realise you are being sarcastic. ^^

Anonymous said...

It is an unfortunate incident. Unfortunate and sad.
This regular is also a potential ranger candidate.
With this potential, it is not like anyone who could possibly just die like that.
Till the report is out, no point speculating.
And yes, after serving 2.5yrs and 13 ICT, NS is undoubtedly STUPID!
Foreign business partner invest here not because we have a pseudo strong arm forces but a population of obedient workers.

Anonymous said...

This is indeed a serious issue.

My son is my only child. I dread the day if something like this happens to him.

He means more to me than Singapore.

I served 2.5 years of NS and I found it a total waste of my time. Yeah sure, you can form meaningful friendships etc like you can't outside of camp life. Total bullshit.

Anyway, how long can we protect Singapore? 5 days? 5 weeks? Get real.

Any invader with a serious intent will crush us within a day. Fight like Iraq and Vietnam?

Meng Kee said...

Years ago we had this speaker Gerald De Cruz give a talk at our school. He was one of those communist sympathizer types who was given new lease of life on condition that he goes round preaching a new gospel. He narrated how the British defence forces, in the face of the Japanese Army matching down the Malay Peninsula, built some wooden aeroplanes that, viewed from the air, would give the enemy the impression that Singapore had an airforce which will blunt their attack. Gerald told the students that this was the type of foolishness that let to the defeat of the British and the surrender of Singapore.
When question time came around, a Sec 1 student posed the query to the speaker: "Aren't our NS men the equivalent of those wooden aeroplanes?" The whole RI assembly roared in approval!
Gerald, practiced demogogue and propagandist that he was, didn't take that nicely of course, and went on ad nauseam about loyalty to the nation, making sacrifices, etc without addressing the real question of whether Singapore is defensible.
The truth, as we all know, is that our strategy is to play for time, and hope the calvary (who's they?) will come charging to our rescue. Which really bugs me why this Rear Admiral and spanking new Minister went to buy 5 old submarines from Sweden - how to frighten off the enemy when the stuff is underwater???

Mr Wang Says So said...

I wasn't expecting this to develop into a discussion about military strategy, but I would think that the SAF strategy in the event of war with Malaysia would go something like this:

strike first; strike deep; secure water supplies in Johor; use Johor as buffer.

Isn't that how the whole SAF is organised?

Anonymous said...

Our big brother - the US will free us from invasion!!!!

We can enjoy their interpretation of human rights .... hee hee

Nowadays hor, seems only the US wants a war every other day.

Anonymous said...

My apologies for my ignorance.

Never served NS because I am wo-Man.

This strategy sounds nice and dandy. Has Malaysia agreed to it? Sounds like we are invading Malaysia instead. Or are we suggesting that Malaysia will bother to invade us, hah?


I mean, looking at the geographical location of Singapore, the strategy can't be used if attacks come from Indonesia or Australia, what?!

I know, I know .... you men will conclude that all Singaporean girls must serve NS. Otherwise they ask these type of stupid questions ...

Anonymous said...

Oh dear,

I am stupid! Mr Wang did say it's all about going to war with Malaysia only ....

And all along, I thought our boys were doing it for greater objectives.

Then, I can safely conclude that there is no need for NS lah.

Remember? Old Man threw the idea of Singapore merging with Malaysia?!

Of course, we were so upset we didn't see his logic and put it alongside the other idea about 2 votes for some and not the others?

*The Lunatic Fringe* said...

I could not resist jumping into the fray on defence issues as a soon to be MR'd (mindef reserve) NSmen this year.

LTA Lionel - very sad. It is always sad when any Singaporean dies. But given his commando calibre, it does raise some eyebrows because based on what the newspapers reported, they kept to the very bare facts with totally no point of view. I find it strange that a commando and marathoner/biathlete would just perish under those conditions reported. As Mr. Wang suggests, let the Mindef Board/Committee of Inquiry do their job.

For SAF as an effective deterrence. We still will not know for sure until war happens if the SAF can defend Singapore until the Five Power Defence Pact and ASEAN Security pact and whatever bilateral security arrangements plus the UN comes in. There are many countries with miniscle military forces e.g. Brunei who have huge tracts of forests and oil fields to protect and their sovereignty has not been tested by aggessors. Same for New Zealand. In fact, New Zealand has for all intents and purposes scrapped their airforce. So does this mean those countries relatively smaller armies provide better deterrence that ours? Possibly Jane's Defence Analysts would be in a better position to comment intelligently. :-)

Anonymous said...

You "find it strange that a commando and marathoner/biathlete would just perish under those conditions reported"

So what are you suggesting? That there was negligence or deliberate intent to make him suffer? This being a small elite unit, i'm sure his instructors take to him like one of their brothers and wouldn't have wanted this to happen too.

You are right to say we should let the Mindef Board/Committee of Inquiry do their job.

And ya, an actual war isn't a good way to test out if our deterrance works. It would be too late then.

*The Lunatic Fringe* said...

To Anonymous:

I am not suggesting anything. I am stating an opinion - I find it strange. You may not. I am suggesting whatever your mind is telling you what I am suggesting. But if your mind is telling you what you think I am suggesting, then so be it ;-)

The whole idea of SAF as a deterrence is to put off would be aggressors in the first instance. Agree with you that if war starts, firstly, the SAF as a deterrence would have failed. That being said, no-one knows how SAF will perform in real combat. Even as I go into Mindef Reserve, if there is a real war, technically I could still be mobilised :-P

I tend to subscribe to Thomas Friedman's idea that so far no 2 countries that has a McDonalds' outlet has declared war on one another. :-) So let more McDonalds' outlets grow both in Singapore and in our neighbours cities.

Anonymous said...

Okay granted, i acknowledge that it was just an opinion of yours.

McDonald's? Why does it always lead to American imperialism?? *sigh*

Recruit Ong said...

"So what are you suggesting? That there was negligence or deliberate intent to make him suffer? This being a small elite unit, i'm sure his instructors take to him like one of their brothers and wouldn't have wanted this to happen too."

Are u a female or a foreigner? If so u are excused from making such dumb statements. You think NS and SAF training is like a holiday camp? Instructors taking to trainees like brothers??? WAHAHAHAHA!!!!! OMFG this is so damn hilarious! OMG my toes are twitching and convulsing in uncontrollable laughter! Have you forgotten about the commando POW training that killed 19 yrs old Sgt Hu Enhuai and almost 2 other men in their prime and best of health?? Did you read what they do to him and the rest of the trainees? And those lurid details are probably half of what really happened... all in the name of tough training. Protecting our nation?! More like slave labour protecting the foreign interests on our shores. If SAF training has to be necessarily tough etc etc why is it that the famiLEE and our very own key ministers are protected by Gurkhas instead of our own soldiers or police? Why do we continue to have Gurkha regiments in S'pore? Is it becoz when the need arises these foreign mercenaries would have no qualms pulling the triggers whereas the SAF wouldn't have the heart to turn on their fellow countrymen? Wake up dude!!!

Barry said...

"..protected by Gurkhas instead of our own soldiers or police..."
I really hate these Gurkhas. The Malay policemen who used to be on guard will take the initiative to remember my licence plate so that I don't have to identify myself each time I come by to visit. But I have to with these foreign mercenaries, plus they seem to have a poor grasp of English. They don't look too intelligent either; surely our own soldiers or police can do a better job. The Gurkhas are on two hour shifts, so there's quite a lot of job opportunities right there if they are replaced by our own people.

Anonymous said...

if you want deterrence, singapore must go NUCLEAR!

Anonymous said...

What SAF needs is an independent commission to look at each and every death.

To open up and reveal.

However, all men in Singapore knows that will dig up too many malpractices from operations to intelligence to logistic etc.

Our defence is world class because other armies are worst actually. So is all relative. Absolutely, we have much to improve.

Anonymous said...

The unfortunate and sad fact is that deaths and injuries from NS training forms an actuarial statistic, not unlike road accidents, plane crashes or deaths from major illnesses.

The important thing is whether this statistic actually gets to be zero in some years (like zero defect policy) or has been trending upwards in the last few years. If the latter, then something is seriously wrong. Anyway, Mindef should publish this statistic as a public service. Major oil companies publish their occupational and safety statistics. Mindef should do this too to benchmark its safety performance.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think insurance companies in Singapore actually issue policies for deaths and accidents sustained during NS training. Perhaps they know something that we don't.

singaporean said...

The senior hierachy is rotated so frequently that there are barely any experienced hands running the SAF from the top, and most of them are scholars waiting to retire to the promised cushy life in a GLC. For the safety of my family, I'd rather put them on the first vehicle out of singapore than trust our excellent military scholars.

In the past, Singapore was dependent on water. Perhaps we have won our independence from foreign sourced water now, only to see a new dependence emerge. We have seen how a minor trip in Indonesian gas led to an island-wide blackout. Unless we build nuclear power plants (and I think we will, some day), an effective oil embargo will kill us within a few weeks anyway.

When Japan invaded Singapore, a force of 20,000 soldiers scared nearly 100,000 British/Indian/Australian soldiers into surrender. Was General Percival really the cowardly fool our history textbooks protrayed him as, or did he know better? You really think 200,000 NSF+NSmen will make a difference? Do you really know your history?

Anonymous said...

To Singaporean:

I concur with your view that the SAF is an untested force. The modern SAF is really staffed by generals who only fight war on paper. The closest thing for SAF to get into combat situation is to volunteer for UN peacekeeping missions in battalion or even company size units. 1 or 2 majors and colonels just does not cut it.

Singapore is dependent on our sea, air and land links for imports to survive. Energy-wise, I am not sure nuclear plant will solve the issue. If there is a nuclear meltdown, then we basically have committed collective suicide. :-P There is no place to escape fallout from a Chernobyl type of disaster. No need to fight war, enemy just needs to target the nuclear plant and it's game over.

Anonymous said...

Reminds me of Red Alert 2 where you target the nuclear plant... :-))))

Anonymous said...

So it seems you singaporeans don't think too highly about your own military.

Interesting.

Anonymous said...

If they suck they suck. Misplaced patriotism would be worse.

Anonymous said...

I think it is not the deaths that are most painful but the attitude of SAF towards such deaths that are most painful.

The first thing they thought of will be

"How to cover up and how to protect backside"

"How to whitewash the entire incident and sweep it under carpet to be forgotten"

These are the attitudes I consistently witnessed in SAF personnel that pains me the most.

No one will step out and take responsibilty for anything when such incidents happen.

They push all the way up to Minister and later Minister push all the way down to the men.

No one bothers about Safety Regulations at all. No one bothers about Safety Reviews at all until accidents takes place.

In fact, no one cares about the life and death of any soldier in SAF at all.

Commando Unit has the highest number of accidental deaths.

This one plus 3 years ago that guy who drowned in the "bathtub" makes it two in 3 years plus not considering unreported cases....

When your love ones in future come home in a bodybag and SAF say they died of training accident on their own, you better ask for a trial or the real truth will never be known.

Just like the "Commando drowned in bathtub case"

MINDEF first statement was he died on his own.

From instructors up until CO, all covered up the incident until his friend must go internet to tell the truth then force MINDEF to investigate. What kind of system is this?

This culture of protecting image at all cost is perpetuated by PAP and has contaminated all parts of life in Singapore. Very sad.

Anonymous said...

Hey Mr Wang

Is this sad news another addition to the "boo boo of Ministry of defence"? You mentioned about setting up this side bar since Jan 2006.

Anonymous said...

Cool it dudes! Yes the death is unfortunate and sad. My respects to the late Lionel.

But for it to spark of all this exaggerated, blown out of proportion views?? Such negative notions of your own amry and country?

Pathetic.

Anonymous said...

MATILAH SINGAPURA!

(Gee what a bunch of pathetic zero-humanity LOSERS!)

singaporean said...

At the footsoldier level, I believe the average Singaporean soldier is as good as any other in the world. General Pershing was picked to lead the American Army in WW1 simply because he had "war" experience chasing Mexican bandits (unsuccessfully). Almost all the soldiers who landed in Normandy on D-Day has never seen a single day of battle either, but they were more than a match against the battle hardened Germans.

I do not question the battle readiness of the footsoldier and their junior commanders. I question the battle readiness of their senior commanders. I was told Teo Chee Hean was made Chief of Navy without ever commanding a ship. Bay Soo Khiang flew transport planes. Lee Hsien Loong was made Brigadier General at 30 (and even found time to do his masters at Harvard). The youngest Chief of Defence Force (Lim Chuan Poh) we ever had, took command at 37. The CO of my NSF unit is now CEO of some GLC for some time already. He should be around 43 this year.

This is not a question of paper generals. I wonder if our generals had enough time to do their paper battles in the first place before moving on. Oh wait, they are good at taking exams, so they must be good at reading. Given their high IQ and helicoptor vision, who am I to question their abilities? My mistake. Forget what I said. Singapura Boleh!

BTW, I believe a properly built properly maintained nuclear power plant is as safe (or as dangerous) as any wafer fab. If you can rip one of those Pasir Ris fabs apart, there wouldnt be too many living souls in the east part of Singapore (think Union Carbide toxic gas leak in Bhopal, except the gases are even more toxic).

Anonymous said...

All Hail the footsoldiers and junior commanders of SAF!

Hip hip... HOORAY!!
Hip hip... HOORAY!!
Hip hip... HOORAY!!

Fox said...

Almost all the soldiers who landed in Normandy on D-Day has never seen a single day of battle either, but they were more than a match against the battle hardened Germans.

Actually, most of the opposing German forces in France were second line reserve units composed mainly of new recruits and men unfit for duty on the Russian front.

Also, many of the American and Allied commanders had experience fighting in North Africa where they were beaten several times by the German forces before they learned to use their overwhelming material advantage to overwhelm the German forces.

Eugene Wee said...

"He narrated how the British defence forces, in the face of the Japanese Army matching down the Malay Peninsula, built some wooden aeroplanes that, viewed from the air, would give the enemy the impression that Singapore had an airforce which will blunt their attack. Gerald told the students that this was the type of foolishness that let to the defeat of the British and the surrender of Singapore."

To describe such an act as foolish is perhaps jumping to a conclusion. Deception is a valid and essential part of warfare. That said, I am not too sure how good is *our* modern deception, and whether it is worth the trouble we go to maintain it.

OCT Zh'ng Mai Kah said...

Wat fuckin defence toking u??? 1st sign of trouble b4 even defcon2, all the MIWs n their kah kiahs parachute onto foreign soil, liao. Don't u know abt the top secret SOP with encrypted pdf manual? (comes with quote fr Sun Zi's Art of War: single character strategy embossed on folder / watermarked on pdf) it's "ESCAPE/RUN AWAY"! That's the key lesson these million dollar men learn from their S.E.R.E. (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape) trg conducted by SOF/SOCT. They cut to the chase and settle on ultimate and safest strategy - run road! btw G2 MINDEF has dedicated alert network with helicopter/transport planes on 24hr standby for VVIP evacuation. it's all open secret, lah. ask your mindef insider & they can tell you more stories!

Anonymous said...

Most Singaporeans with the means would already have set up second homes elsewhere.

In fact, I think there would be fights amongst Singaporeans to catch the first flights out of Singapore even before the enemies' planes arrive.

Singapore, without its reserves, is not worth invading. Unless you are one of those mentally deranged who had an old score to settle with some Singaporeans.

I am more curious as to what if some MIW flee with our reserves and never return? Hey, at least I should have my CPF back!!!

It's very dandy to be patriotic and die for the country. Very Yue Fei-ish. Well, even then, this clown didn't die in battle, he was sabotaged by some gahmen officials!

So, Singaporeans, before emulating his sad mistake, think first.

Anonymous said...

You people should not call yourselves Singaporeans if you harbour such thoughts of fleeing your country at the first signs of trouble!

- Foreign Expat

Anonymous said...

I'd love to be a foreign expat in Singapore actually. Alas I'm a citizen.

singaporean said...

Foreign expat? Isnt that an oxymoron? Is there such a thing as a local expat? Most probably not a native speaker of English I guess.

Our govt has never stopped reminding the citizens that we are just employees in Singapore Inc, and useless or troublemaking citizens can be cast aside for corporate efficiency. How much will you sacrifice for a company which values efficiency over your well being?

What is Singapore to the Singaporean? Singlish, Char Kway Teow and Chicken Rice? And perhaps the warm fuzzy feeling of being treated like children all our lives? Such are real important stuff worth dying for indeed.

In any case, at first sign of trouble, our only real human right will be stripped as well and Singaporean men will be forbidden from leaving Singapore, so it would be really tough deserting Singapore anyway.

SQ L33 said...

It is an open secret that there are plans for those-who-cannot-be-named to 'fly out' aka "run road" at the sign of trouble. Guess what? That trouble is likely to come from within instead of external, that is if the gurkhas have failed to stem the tide.

OCT Micah Zh'ng Mai Kah said...

1. foreign expat means to say he's FT (foreign trash).

2. trash are guests of sg and have no fucking privilege to comment on citizenry matters, loyalty or otherwise - so FUCK OFF!!!

3. getting cpf back? hmmm ... let's see ... minimum sum keep increasing, retirement age being pushed back, upgrading & medical "subsidies" required co-payment, tpt cost rising, scums-in-white million dollar paychecks keep increasing, temasek ROI less than market return of diversified portfolio w/systematic risk, reserves being plundered by wHOre Jinx losing billions of reserves (Micropolis, etc), SGX being primed to be ripped off again by cunning prcs on invitation of lee con you fr recent visit (north eastern china notorious for corruption scandals), list of assets takes man-decades to compile (prataman president prob didn't even continue Ong Teng Cheong's task), list of things that can screw up your cpf withdrawal is endless man ... better migrate and cash in your cpf b4 it's too late!!!

4. jobs for foreign trash. ns servitude for citizens. aren't national serfs entitled to a share of the millions for being cannon fodder in event of a bust up?

5. scums-in-white no need to fight with peasants for planes, one! now you know why garmen buy submarines, huh? so they can avoid the crush at changi and also slip away unnoticed, LOL!!!

Anonymous said...

Most politicians prefer to ignore facts and like to use issues like mandotory military service, fancy hardware and numerical superiority as a political too to galvanise the population. There is nothing like uniting a people than "having a wolf at the door." A misguided nationalism, can in turn be used to garner support for certain politicians by demonising "evil, foreign influence."

In reality, despite the lack of confidence in the SAF, most Singaporean would not be very comfortable without a standing army. The government reinforces this by hammering it into us in our text books, TV, policies, etc.

singaporean said...

"Anonymous said...

Most politicians prefer to ignore facts and like to use issues like mandotory military service, fancy hardware and numerical superiority as a political too to galvanise the population."

I think you hit the nail right on the head. NS in Singapore, may have been a necessity once, but today, is nothing more than a deception.

The Australian Defence Force has about 53,000 active personnel and about 20,000 reservists. The SAF has about 75,000 active personnel and over 200,000 rather active reservists.

When you consider the geographical area of the two countries, or the level of international commitment (of Australia in Iraq, Afghanistan, East Timor and the myriad South Pacific banana republics like Solomon Islands), you got to ask yourself. Why the hell do we need this many soldiers?

And if defence is such an important issue, why play musical chairs with the generals?

Anonymous said...

Historically speaking, there have been many instances where mandatory military service did not prevent countries from being attacked and over run. One fine example is the fall of the lower countries in Europe during the Second WW.

OCT Micah Zh'ng Mai Kah said...

[... And if defence is such an important issue, why play musical chairs with the generals? ...]

dat's 'cos Lee Conned You!!! still pondering the serial number on your ballot paper??? well, u deserved 2 b shafted by the PAP "no we're not homophobic 'cos we enjoy being shafted by foreign trash". don't waste yr next oppty 2 send a pointed msg at GE 2011!

Monarchist said...

Bah. Whatever the Gahmen says about NS is basically crap.

"We the unfortunate,
Led by the incompetent,
Do the unnecessary,
For the ungrateful."

I heard of it long since my NCC days. heheh.

matt said...

I do think that as far as most guys are concerned, they will say they hated NS while they were in it. Who doesn't? But at age 43, I must say our government has done right by setting up the NS and the reservist force. I am not pro-PAP but Pro-Singapore. Speak to the man in the street and I believe many still agree to the idea of National service. Regardless of the above, I do agree that one death in SAF is one death too many and the safety issues must be addressed and tightened. Sometimes I do think that the blogs are skewed too much to be anti PAP and anti establishment. Hey after the note by Mah Bow Tan today, it is easy to hate PAP, (I do!)but we need to find some balance too.

lee hsien tau said...

Peacekeeping? Contributing LSTs off Basra when the invasion's over and done with? When no beachhead need be established? What other use for LSTs?

kaede said...

quote---When someone close to you dies, let's see whether you will have tolerance. How many deaths should we tolerate? Ten, twenty, 100?

LTA Lionel was my friend...

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