tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12908820.post112977268098745643..comments2024-03-14T22:55:24.426+08:00Comments on Mr Wang Bakes Good Karma: Suspects and their LawyersGilbert Koh aka Mr Wanghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01027678080233274309noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12908820.post-1141717857884332982006-03-07T15:50:00.000+08:002006-03-07T15:50:00.000+08:00Mr Wang is an ex-Deputy Public Prosecutor. Has Mr ...Mr Wang is an ex-Deputy Public Prosecutor. Has Mr Wang ever been to the dungeons beneath his humble court. I fear Mr Wang writes with a colored vision when his topics is on the Singapore judicial system of which he was part of.<BR/><BR/>Anthony (who admits he is bait) believes that Mr Wang has set up a straw man case here. I beg to defer even when I don't know what is meant by a straw man case.<Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12908820.post-1130515013516654062005-10-28T23:56:00.000+08:002005-10-28T23:56:00.000+08:00I think the misunderstanding arises from Mr Wang's...I think the misunderstanding arises from Mr Wang's assumption that our police, like our government, are infallible. There is thus no need for pesky defence lawyers - the police will automatically do the right thing in every circumstances. Having a defence lawyer have access to his client will just complicate their investigations and prevent them from doing their job.<BR/><BR/>Why bother with an Agagoogahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11427912904378599921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12908820.post-1130467990587363412005-10-28T10:53:00.000+08:002005-10-28T10:53:00.000+08:00Mr Expat:You're grasping at straws. How long was t...Mr Expat:<BR/><BR/>You're grasping at straws. How long was this girl at the police station, separated from her family? Is it 30 minutes? Two hours? Two days? One month? Of course the answer makes a big difference.<BR/><BR/>Every case has its own story. Therefore the question of how long a person needs to be held varies from case to case. <BR/><BR/>For example, in a case like Huang Na - where a Gilbert Koh aka Mr Wanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01027678080233274309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12908820.post-1130466571302058672005-10-28T10:29:00.000+08:002005-10-28T10:29:00.000+08:00How could I know more about the case? There is no...How could I know more about the case? There is no real newspaper in this country! It's under the yoke, like the police, like the judiciary, of the businessmen who run this city. <BR/><BR/>There were two paragraphs in the Straitjacket Times at the time and then, like liberty and human rights, it disappeared. But it stuck in my mind as the perfect example of how a rational state can do expat@largehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01250623536121293636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12908820.post-1130455975421552702005-10-28T07:32:00.000+08:002005-10-28T07:32:00.000+08:00AND by the way -although this would no doubt shock...AND by the way -<BR/><BR/>although this would no doubt shock the pants off you, MANY police officers that I have met are very kind. <BR/><BR/>Depending on the facts of the case, they can be highly sympathetic to the people involved, whether the people involved are victims, witnesses OR accused persons.<BR/><BR/>So don't go around imagining that police officers are all evil monsters out to hurt Gilbert Koh aka Mr Wanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01027678080233274309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12908820.post-1130455734974565032005-10-28T07:28:00.000+08:002005-10-28T07:28:00.000+08:00You seem terribly excited about this case. May I a...You seem terribly excited about this case. May I ask you how long this girl was actually detained by the police? <BR/><BR/>By the way - you do not understand the presumption of innocence at all. You have no idea what it means. I mean, really. I'm not making fun of you at all. You have no idea what it means.<BR/><BR/>Presumption of innocence is a legal principle that governs a wide range of Gilbert Koh aka Mr Wanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01027678080233274309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12908820.post-1130428389728468732005-10-27T23:53:00.000+08:002005-10-27T23:53:00.000+08:00You are the one who needs to (Martin) SEE! In thi...You are the one who needs to (Martin) SEE! <BR/><BR/>In this girl's case(she was merely a CHILD herself!) you need to see that it is a human being we are talking about. <BR/><BR/>She might be my daughter. She might be your daughter. <BR/><BR/>Does that help you to understand where I am coming from? <BR/><BR/>PARTICULARLY because this may not be designated as crime is the PERFECT REASON why "expat@largehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01250623536121293636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12908820.post-1130370941103231802005-10-27T07:55:00.000+08:002005-10-27T07:55:00.000+08:00Phil You're mistaken all over again. You DON'T kno...Phil <BR/><BR/>You're mistaken all over again. <BR/><BR/>You DON'T know that it's HER baby. You DON'T know that SHE killed the baby. You DON'T know whether it was SOMEONE else who killed the baby. If it was her who killed the baby, you DON'T know if anyone else (the FATHER maybe?) instigated her to do it. You DON'T know if anyone abetted her in killing the baby. For all you know, the baby was Gilbert Koh aka Mr Wanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01027678080233274309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12908820.post-1130340186250298672005-10-26T23:23:00.000+08:002005-10-26T23:23:00.000+08:00Ivan, rereading - yes OF COURSE that WAS my point!...Ivan, rereading - yes OF COURSE that WAS my point! How could you not get it? <BR/><BR/>We know she killed the baby, what good (in any sense you want) would her NOT having a lawyer and support group do? How would justice (in any sense you want) be served? How would the community, that the law is meant to protect and serve, be protected and be served? What message does it send? <BR/><BR/>I've expat@largehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01250623536121293636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12908820.post-1130339697679982612005-10-26T23:14:00.000+08:002005-10-26T23:14:00.000+08:00OK, my blood was boiling - I said I ain't no lawye...OK, my blood was boiling - I said I ain't no lawyer - but even so, the point I am concerned about is that questioning someone without them having legal guidance is a <B>fascist</B> thing to do. <BR/><BR/>I think if you had been a defense lawyer instead of a DPP person, you would have been inculcated with a different attitude. And if you were my defense lawyer, innocent or guilty, you'd damn expat@largehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01250623536121293636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12908820.post-1130284093066478712005-10-26T07:48:00.000+08:002005-10-26T07:48:00.000+08:00I kinda agree, actually. I see mistakes everywhere...I kinda agree, actually. I see mistakes everywhere. For example, E@L says:<BR/><BR/>"You start with the "truth": the fact that someone is guilty and then ask us which is the most efficient way to hang them!"<BR/><BR/>I didn't quite do that. In fact, I pointed out that in many cases, there is no clear suspect (because the police really do not know who did it) and therefore all witnesses are Gilbert Koh aka Mr Wanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01027678080233274309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12908820.post-1130260791532914462005-10-26T01:19:00.000+08:002005-10-26T01:19:00.000+08:00Do'h! I meant to say Socrates, not Aristotle. I ...Do'h! I meant to say Socrates, not Aristotle. I told you I'm not a philosopher, barely even a poor student philosphy.<BR/><BR/>E@Lexpat@largehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01250623536121293636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12908820.post-1130259027472390982005-10-26T00:50:00.000+08:002005-10-26T00:50:00.000+08:00Gabriel: Of course we can! It happens every day -...Gabriel: Of course we can! It happens every day - it called the Singapore government and the judicial processes of Singapore. <BR/><BR/>Back when I used to care enough to read the local "paper", there was new evidence in every edition.<BR/><BR/>**************<BR/><BR/>Mr Wang: What if "Anthony" was a 14 year old girl who got pregnant unknowingly and secretly, then threw her new-born baby out ofexpat@largehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01250623536121293636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12908820.post-1130234000523527452005-10-25T17:53:00.000+08:002005-10-25T17:53:00.000+08:00Perhaps it is because the presumption of innocence...Perhaps it is because the presumption of innocence/guilt is interchanged here.<BR/><BR/>We cannot let bad, bad people ruin society for law abiding folk!Agagoogahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11427912904378599921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12908820.post-1130049806107588792005-10-23T14:43:00.000+08:002005-10-23T14:43:00.000+08:00Aki:Well, to put it very simply, in any trial, the...Aki:<BR/><BR/>Well, to put it very simply, in any trial, the material facts must be proved. <BR/><BR/>One piece of evidence can also go towards proving several different material facts. Several different pieces of evidence can go towards proving one material fact. <BR/> <BR/>Let's say in a robbery case, the fact that the accused snatched the victim's gold chain can be proved in several ways.<BR/>Gilbert Koh aka Mr Wanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01027678080233274309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12908820.post-1130006208973444762005-10-23T02:36:00.000+08:002005-10-23T02:36:00.000+08:00Will I help the police? Probably. Do I have a -cho...Will I help the police? Probably. Do I have a -choice- to help the police? No. Does it matter? Maybe.<BR/><BR/>I brought up the evidentiary process because what will be accepted in evidence will affect the investigative process. If the police find 100 confessions accepted in evidence that allows them to "cut corners", chances are they will "cut corners" for the 101st time.<BR/><BR/>And here's theAnthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16404874584727768253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12908820.post-1130004562601394842005-10-23T02:09:00.000+08:002005-10-23T02:09:00.000+08:00If a judge refuses to accept a coerced confession,...If a judge refuses to accept a coerced confession, the correct basis for refusal is that a coerced confession may not be reliable.<BR/><BR/>1. The problem with that argument is: you still endorse the possibility of using police violence to obtain true evidence.<BR/><BR/>2. I'm not sure what you meant by "the correct basis" - please clarify if you're talking about the LEGAL basis, and whether thatakikonomuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05750460516384317828noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12908820.post-1130004384282938932005-10-23T02:06:00.000+08:002005-10-23T02:06:00.000+08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.akikonomuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05750460516384317828noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12908820.post-1129985198549546972005-10-22T20:46:00.000+08:002005-10-22T20:46:00.000+08:00Some of this wouldn't be up to you, as judge actua...Some of this wouldn't be up to you, as judge actually. You have to understand that within the system, everyone has a specific role to play; and specific powers, with limits.<BR/><BR/>As judge, your power to reject or accept evidence depends on the laws of evidence. And you have no power to reject relevant evidence because you don't like how the police did their investigations. <BR/><BR/>For Gilbert Koh aka Mr Wanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01027678080233274309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12908820.post-1129981348038380062005-10-22T19:42:00.000+08:002005-10-22T19:42:00.000+08:00My point of consideration:3. Do I really want to m...My point of consideration:<BR/>3. Do I really want to make a ruling that would encourage the police to do the same thing to every suspect they haul up?<BR/><BR/>Your suggestion:<BR/>8. None of this, however, means that the killer will go free. It simply means that if necessary, both the killer and the officer will go to jail.<BR/><BR/>No, I am for zero toleratnce here. Some officers may find thatakikonomuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05750460516384317828noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12908820.post-1129980081106438112005-10-22T19:21:00.000+08:002005-10-22T19:21:00.000+08:00No, I think you are not seeing the complete pictur...No, I think you are not seeing the complete picture. But I am not surprised. As I mentioned earlier, it is not exactly the easiest thing in the world for the general public to explain.<BR/><BR/>I think this is the better way to approach the matter:<BR/><BR/>1. Understand firstly that the key danger of coerced confessions is that they may be untrue. For example, there is the risk that an innocentGilbert Koh aka Mr Wanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01027678080233274309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12908820.post-1129977691037336202005-10-22T18:41:00.000+08:002005-10-22T18:41:00.000+08:00wrt comment posted on 10/20/2005 4:42 PM:Now I inv...wrt comment posted on 10/20/2005 4:42 PM:<BR/><I>Now I invite you to consider what you would think/do if you were the judge, and Took said: "They forced me to tell them where I had hid Huang Na's body. They beat me up, otherwise I would never have admitted to it. Since they beat me up, you shouldn't convict me, because it's just not fair."<BR/><BR/>What would you, as judge, think?</I><BR/><BR/>Asakikonomuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05750460516384317828noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12908820.post-1129967123139090202005-10-22T15:45:00.000+08:002005-10-22T15:45:00.000+08:00AnthonyYou're confusing the court process with the...Anthony<BR/><BR/>You're confusing the court process with the investigation process. There is a failure to appreciate this - <BR/><BR/>in every case, there is a point when the police really do not know what has happened.<BR/><BR/>Look for example at the Huang Na case. There are 30 vegetable sellers in the market. Any of them could be the killer/rapist. How do you know which one is the guy? <BR/><Gilbert Koh aka Mr Wanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01027678080233274309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12908820.post-1129958596437505542005-10-22T13:23:00.000+08:002005-10-22T13:23:00.000+08:00Sporescores set out pretty much the principle of w...Sporescores set out pretty much the principle of what I wanted to say - I don't necessarily see silence as being a binary situation of guilty/not guilty.<BR/><BR/>Let me start from the beginning then. <BR/><BR/><I>"SingaporeClassics is found lying dead on the floor, stabbed in the chest. Two metres away from him, Anthony is seen holding a bloody knife."</I><BR/><BR/>I believe that Mr Wang has setAnthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16404874584727768253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12908820.post-1129886130976365312005-10-21T17:15:00.000+08:002005-10-21T17:15:00.000+08:00The point is: NOT anyone with a straight brain has...The point is: NOT anyone with a straight brain has the right to <I>judge the case</I>. Judges - if they have a straight brain - should not be allowed to sit in court ;)akikonomuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05750460516384317828noreply@blogger.com